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Peter Machen: Good evening, everyone. Hi, I'm Peter Machen and I'm talking to Agnes-Lisa Wagner, director of King Bansah and His Daughter tonight. We're also very lucky to have King Bansah and his daughter, Katarina Bansah, with us tonight. Welcome to Encounters everybody,
Agnes-Lisa Wagner: Thank you very much for having us.
PM: It's an absolute pleasure! Agnes, let’s begin with you. Can you just tell me a little bit about the genesis of the film? How did it come to be made? Did you already know about the story?
ALW: Sure. I knew of King Bansah. People in Mannheim talk about him. I live in the city of Mannheim in Germany. And King Bansah and his daughter Katarina, they both live in Ludwigshafen, which is five minutes from here, just across the Rhine River. And people talk about him – so I knew there was a king living very close by. And moving to Mannheim, I had heard about just the fact that he is there but had never met him. And then, Katarina was actually the first of the two that I met – she moved into my office space. I had this office for freelance creative people and Katarina joined us for a little while, and we got along really well and had many very interesting conversations.
So, after a while, we met again after she had moved out of the office. And during one of our conversations, I asked her – it came to me very spontaneously, the thought that this family could actually be a film – and I asked her during breakfast at a little cafe and she was also very spontaneous and said, “Yes, I actually could imagine doing that”. And then, I think a few weeks later, she took me to her parent’s place and I met the king.
PM: King Bansah, can you tell me just a little bit about how you felt? What did you think when the idea of the film was first suggested? How did you respond?
King Bansah: I have done a lot of films here in Germany. The media, they like my attitude. They like how I work. I'm a hard worker, you know, a double engineer, an engineer of agriculture machinery and an engineer of cars. So, the Germans, they appreciate how I work hard. I train Germans – since last year, I've trained 14 Germans in my garage. Yeah, and Agnes comes and tells me the story. And I said “If you like we can do it. No problem!”
4:41 to 5:08?
So, Agnes comes to me and my daughter and then we talk about it. Then we go to Ghana. From Ghana, we go to Togo. Togo is our ebe, real ebe land, spiritual land – juju. Yeah, because our religion is spiritual – juju – voodoo. You call it ‘voodoo’. This is our spirit world, yeah. That's why, before we do everything, we must talk to the spirit world.
So that was everything. I think we are all satisfied about what we have done.
PM: Thank you very much. So, you were talking about voodoo or juju and the spirit world. And Katarina, in the film, you talk about how important it was for you to connect with that part of your culture and your history – and presumably yourself and your soul. Can you just talk a little bit about the experience of connecting with that thing that is very different from your German upbringing – but clearly important?
Katarina Bansah: It’s something I’ve been growing up with because of my father. I'm growing up with the voodoo spirit because I've been growing up with a man from Ghana who’s my father. And every time we went to Ghana, it was an important part to celebrate this spiritual and really natural belief. It’s difficult for me to call it a religion because for me a religion is more the stuff that’s written in books and has a lot of rules, and the voodoo is just the normal rules by nature. And if you don't follow the rules of nature you will get punished by nature, or by the people around you.
It's just some really simple rules, and you celebrate and connect with nature, and celebrate it in different events and singing, dancing, telling stories. This is all part of celebrating the voodoo, and it’s a lot about love and about love to the nature – and not just about puppets and putting stuff into puppets. [laughs]. It’s much bigger and it's really fulfilling and really blissful. And it’s also a bit romantic. It’s hard; it’s not everything nice, like in our churches, where everything is gold and clean. Really, you are with the dirt, you are with the fire, with the water. Everything. The sweat. Yes! And you're dancing, and everything of this is voodoo. And it can be really big when you’re celebrating it. Yeah. And it’s a great spiritual way to connect with nature, where we are coming from. (laughs)
PM: Yeah! So can I ask you and your father – I’d like you both to answer – about the physical experience and emotional experience of being in Ghana, which is, it seems to me, a very different reality to Germany. I’m from South Africa, and I also live in Berlin and it is in some ways a different world. So, beyond the questions of race and identity, just the experience of being there – how different is that for you?
King B: Well, I live here in Germany. We are Christian here. We are Christian. Yeah, and first of all, my nature is a voodoo nature. And here in Germany, it is Bremen who brought Christianity to Ghana. But we don't we don't go to church only. Before we do something, we call our spirit world; we call our spirit first, then we talk to the spirit. And I'll be very happy if you can come with me, if we can go to Togo, then you see how our spirit world is very very powerful and respectable. Yes, I will be very happy! And you can see in the film, my doctor, he put his hand on the wall, is moving on the wall, you see – ask my daughter – how spiritual have been in body and spirit walk in her body. Like electricity. Yes, ask her. She can tell you after she touched this wall.
PM: Tell us, Katarina!
Katarina B: I can't tell you about this spiritual moment! (laughs) Yeah, for sure, the climate is for sure a thing that's completely different from Germany to Ghana. Nature in Ghana is much more powerful. The sun – you are directly at the equator – you don't have a chance to escape the sun; she's really strong. You see it also in the plants, and what people plant there and eat there and everything. For sure, you have racism in Europe. A lot of racism, different types of racism – I’ve grown up with it in our city; we had a lot of racism and still have it for sure. And times don't get easier. It's the voices getting louder but the times don't get easier PETER IS HERE - because we have had so much of a chance to talk about all the different worlds we were living in for the last years, and how I was growing up as a non-white woman – and then, talking to a white woman in Germany, and for her, it’s the first conversation in 35 years about this kind of topic. But for me, it's part of my life, since I discovered that people see me differently. And, for sure, you have your part to carry when you are not white and when you are not…and also it's a different thing when I'm in Ghana – I'm also not black – and somehow you need to find a way to have peace with both of these worlds.
PM: In the film, you do say that, in Ghana, your race is not – “a discrepancy” is the word you used – in Germany, it’s a discrepancy.
Katarina B: Yeah, for sure.
PM: Can I ask you, is that because of the nature of Ghanaian society? Or is that also part of a kind of global racism that, the lighter your skin, the more easily you’re accepted?
Katarina B: Yes. And it’s also – when you ask the people there – the Europeans are always welcome, always ‘a nice people’. And the interesting part for me was when I asked the Ghanaian people about their history, they started with European history in Africa – they didn't start with their African history to describe who immigrated there and who was fighting who and what was the problem or why it was like that…? It was, you know, just how history is happening – and with the Ghanaian people, there was just the history from the Europeans – “The Europeans came here and then and then and then this happened…”
And then I got home to Germany and I wanted to know more about West African history. And this is really a problem – that the Africans don't know their own history – and its history is so interesting. There was so much development that happened in Africa before the Europeans came, while the Europeans came, while they were already there. And this is something that I think it's good to know for your self-worth, to know your history, where you're coming from, and not just from the coloniser’s perspective.
PM: I'm just gonna just put this out there – we don't have the time to explore it – but just this notion of ‘non-white’ or even ‘people of colour’, where it's always against this kind of standard of whiteness. And it just seems that we don't even have the linguistic ability to move around it because it’s so there in the world.
Katarina B: Totally. Yes, it's really there. But I think the new generation who is growing up in Africa has developed a different kind of self-worth and expression. And if you don't know the history, what happened exactly, you start to write a strong history by yourself – and I think that is what is happening now. It's in culture, in really strong fashion. It's interesting how they are developing in the whole world with their talent, and in different parts, and also starting to discover their history, their old history and what it was about. About the hair – why was the hair like this? Why were the lips, you know this big plate? You know? Why was it like this?
And it was because of slavery, because they wanted that their women were not so beautiful so they didn’t get chosen as slaves. They just told them: "it's a tradition. It's a tradition”. But, no, it's not a tradition! (laughs) It’s because of slavery; because the slave buyers didn't pick the women who had this kind of lips. And it's out there now – because of the internet and everything –e have the chance to discover it and live and celebrate it all together, the Europeans and the Africans; we belong together.
Peter Machen: Good evening, everyone. Hi, I'm Peter Machen and I'm talking to Agnes-Lisa Wagner, director of King Bansah and His Daughter tonight. We're also very lucky to have King Bansah and his daughter, Katarina Bansah, with us tonight. Welcome to Encounters everybody,
Agnes-Lisa Wagner: Thank you very much for having us.
PM: It's an absolute pleasure! Agnes, let’s begin with you. Can you just tell me a little bit about the genesis of the film? How did it come to be made? Did you already know about the story?
ALW: Sure. I knew of King Bansah. People in Mannheim talk about him. I live in the city of Mannheim in Germany. And King Bansah and his daughter Katarina, they both live in Ludwigshafen, which is five minutes from here, just across the Rhine River. And people talk about him – so I knew there was a king living very close by. And moving to Mannheim, I had heard about just the fact that he is there but had never met him. And then, Katarina was actually the first of the two that I met – she moved into my office space. I had this office for freelance creative people and Katarina joined us for a little while, and we got along really well and had many very interesting conversations.
So, after a while, we met again after she had moved out of the office. And during one of our conversations, I asked her – it came to me very spontaneously, the thought that this family could actually be a film – and I asked her during breakfast at a little cafe and she was also very spontaneous and said, “Yes, I actually could imagine doing that”. And then, I think a few weeks later, she took me to her parent’s place and I met the king.
PM: King Bansah, can you tell me just a little bit about how you felt? What did you think when the idea of the film was first suggested? How did you respond?
King Bansah: I have done a lot of films here in Germany. The media, they like my attitude. They like how I work. I'm a hard worker, you know, a double engineer, an engineer of agriculture machinery and an engineer of cars. So, the Germans, they appreciate how I work hard. I train Germans – since last year, I've trained 14 Germans in my garage. Yeah, and Agnes comes and tells me the story. And I said “If you like we can do it. No problem!”
4:41 to 5:08?
So, Agnes comes to me and my daughter and then we talk about it. Then we go to Ghana. From Ghana, we go to Togo. Togo is our ebe, real ebe land, spiritual land – juju. Yeah, because our religion is spiritual – juju – voodoo. You call it ‘voodoo’. This is our spirit world, yeah. That's why, before we do everything, we must talk to the spirit world.
So that was everything. I think we are all satisfied about what we have done.
PM: Thank you very much. So, you were talking about voodoo or juju and the spirit world. And Katarina, in the film, you talk about how important it was for you to connect with that part of your culture and your history – and presumably yourself and your soul. Can you just talk a little bit about the experience of connecting with that thing that is very different from your German upbringing – but clearly important?
Katarina Bansah: It’s something I’ve been growing up with because of my father. I'm growing up with the voodoo spirit because I've been growing up with a man from Ghana who’s my father. And every time we went to Ghana, it was an important part to celebrate this spiritual and really natural belief. It’s difficult for me to call it a religion because for me a religion is more the stuff that’s written in books and has a lot of rules, and the voodoo is just the normal rules by nature. And if you don't follow the rules of nature you will get punished by nature, or by the people around you.
It's just some really simple rules, and you celebrate and connect with nature, and celebrate it in different events and singing, dancing, telling stories. This is all part of celebrating the voodoo, and it’s a lot about love and about love to the nature – and not just about puppets and putting stuff into puppets. [laughs]. It’s much bigger and it's really fulfilling and really blissful. And it’s also a bit romantic. It’s hard; it’s not everything nice, like in our churches, where everything is gold and clean. Really, you are with the dirt, you are with the fire, with the water. Everything. The sweat. Yes! And you're dancing, and everything of this is voodoo. And it can be really big when you’re celebrating it. Yeah. And it’s a great spiritual way to connect with nature, where we are coming from. (laughs)
PM: Yeah! So can I ask you and your father – I’d like you both to answer – about the physical experience and emotional experience of being in Ghana, which is, it seems to me, a very different reality to Germany. I’m from South Africa, and I also live in Berlin and it is in some ways a different world. So, beyond the questions of race and identity, just the experience of being there – how different is that for you?
King B: Well, I live here in Germany. We are Christian here. We are Christian. Yeah, and first of all, my nature is a voodoo nature. And here in Germany, it is Bremen who brought Christianity to Ghana. But we don't we don't go to church only. Before we do something, we call our spirit world; we call our spirit first, then we talk to the spirit. And I'll be very happy if you can come with me, if we can go to Togo, then you see how our spirit world is very very powerful and respectable. Yes, I will be very happy! And you can see in the film, my doctor, he put his hand on the wall, is moving on the wall, you see – ask my daughter – how spiritual have been in body and spirit walk in her body. Like electricity. Yes, ask her. She can tell you after she touched this wall.
PM: Tell us, Katarina!
Katarina B: I can't tell you about this spiritual moment! (laughs) Yeah, for sure, the climate is for sure a thing that's completely different from Germany to Ghana. Nature in Ghana is much more powerful. The sun – you are directly at the equator – you don't have a chance to escape the sun; she's really strong. You see it also in the plants, and what people plant there and eat there and everything. For sure, you have racism in Europe. A lot of racism, different types of racism – I’ve grown up with it in our city; we had a lot of racism and still have it for sure. And times don't get easier. It's the voices getting louder but the times don't get easier PETER IS HERE - because we have had so much of a chance to talk about all the different worlds we were living in for the last years, and how I was growing up as a non-white woman – and then, talking to a white woman in Germany, and for her, it’s the first conversation in 35 years about this kind of topic. But for me, it's part of my life, since I discovered that people see me differently. And, for sure, you have your part to carry when you are not white and when you are not…and also it's a different thing when I'm in Ghana – I'm also not black – and somehow you need to find a way to have peace with both of these worlds.
PM: In the film, you do say that, in Ghana, your race is not – “a discrepancy” is the word you used – in Germany, it’s a discrepancy.
Katarina B: Yeah, for sure.
PM: Can I ask you, is that because of the nature of Ghanaian society? Or is that also part of a kind of global racism that, the lighter your skin, the more easily you’re accepted?
Katarina B: Yes. And it’s also – when you ask the people there – the Europeans are always welcome, always ‘a nice people’. And the interesting part for me was when I asked the Ghanaian people about their history, they started with European history in Africa – they didn't start with their African history to describe who immigrated there and who was fighting who and what was the problem or why it was like that…? It was, you know, just how history is happening – and with the Ghanaian people, there was just the history from the Europeans – “The Europeans came here and then and then and then this happened…”
And then I got home to Germany and I wanted to know more about West African history. And this is really a problem – that the Africans don't know their own history – and its history is so interesting. There was so much development that happened in Africa before the Europeans came, while the Europeans came, while they were already there. And this is something that I think it's good to know for your self-worth, to know your history, where you're coming from, and not just from the coloniser’s perspective.
PM: I'm just gonna just put this out there – we don't have the time to explore it – but just this notion of ‘non-white’ or even ‘people of colour’, where it's always against this kind of standard of whiteness. And it just seems that we don't even have the linguistic ability to move around it because it’s so there in the world.
Katarina B: Totally. Yes, it's really there. But I think the new generation who is growing up in Africa has developed a different kind of self-worth and expression. And if you don't know the history, what happened exactly, you start to write a strong history by yourself – and I think that is what is happening now. It's in culture, in really strong fashion. It's interesting how they are developing in the whole world with their talent, and in different parts, and also starting to discover their history, their old history and what it was about. About the hair – why was the hair like this? Why were the lips, you know this big plate? You know? Why was it like this?
And it was because of slavery, because they wanted that their women were not so beautiful so they didn’t get chosen as slaves. They just told them: "it's a tradition. It's a tradition”. But, no, it's not a tradition! (laughs) It’s because of slavery; because the slave buyers didn't pick the women who had this kind of lips. And it's out there now – because of the internet and everything –e have the chance to discover it and live and celebrate it all together, the Europeans and the Africans; we belong together.
PM: I actually mentioned this in the Q&A the other day:the narratives of Africa and Europe and the West are inseparable. They have the same story. You can't put/pull them apart and put one here and one there.
So questions from the audience are mounting up, but there's something I want to talk about - the end of the film, for me, it's one the most important moments in the film – when there's this tension between you and your dad, Mr Bansah, and really about your different experience of being black in Germany and in the world and being, you know, from different generations – and key is this notion of adapting versus retelling the story, repainting the image of people, repainting the image of yourself in people's heads. I think that's how you expressed it. So if you can both talk about this please, I'd be really interested.
KBL This is our downfall in black Africa. Because everybody has a religion but only we blacks, have a problem with our religion. That is our downfall with black Africa because everybody comes and brings a religion. The Christians are bringing religion, the Muslims are bringing religion. Uh Jehovah – everybody come and come and come and do hot a light-do that alike? in black Africa. Yeah. Our Children, most of our Children now, they don't know what is voodoo, what is spiritual voodoo. They don't know what place they come from. Yeah. If you are a black man, you don't know what is voodoo//voodoo is, What your religion you lost. You are not. Yes, that I want to tell the blacks today. Yeah. Our religion is voodoo. We blacks not all the white white religion, this brings this, this bring this this bring this every day then we that that this bring all confession in africa. Yeah, nobody leave us alone. Yes. Yeah, that is a big problem we have in africa. Yeah, But we we live all the world in peace. We are a peaceful person. We black we are the peaceful, peaceful person in this world. Yeah, I know I stayed in Germany since 1917. I'm in Germany. We black we are the peaceful person in this world.
PM: King Bansah, can I ask you about your experience of being black in Germany compared to Katarina’s also, specifically, your experience of being black in in Germany.
King B: My experience in Germany is so nice. It's so beautiful. The Germans, they are so good. The Germans they are so kind. Oh the Germans first time, the first time they watch you//Oh, the Germans, at first they watch you. Yeah, if they see that you are good, everything you need, they'll give you, they'll help you. Yeah. Yes. Germans, I don't think in this world, no, no one, no country who who is better than german uh They have they have a very nice heart. The Germans. Yeah. Yeah. No, I will tell you the truth. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
PM: So I will say that I've been in Berlin for about five years and in some ways that corresponds for me, too - you know, they just want to watch you first and then check out who you are and then a warmth slowly comes. But I also feel that Katarina experiences things in a different way. And maybe, you know, because we all come from different places, and that is your experience. So now can we hear from Katarina who has a very different look on her face right now? Can we hear what Katarina says in response? And I don't want to create any father-daughter tension. I just want to explore things…
Katarina B: I think Germany is a really special country and the Germans are special, and really, yes, my father is not wrong. They are kind people. It's not that you say that they are hateful people. But it's something, they are really…how can I say…they really, they make walls – just like no emotion. No, don't show too much emotion. Don't show your mistake, don't. And I think they are too strong with themselves and they can't see how positive the world is after 50 years or longer, after the Second World War now, how positive the world looks – to Germany. I think there are a lot of tension, still a lot of pain because of the Second World War and we are multicultural society. It's time that we accept that if you want it or not. It's just like that. It's Germany look at, it's in the center of Europe, Everybody needs to pass this country. I don't know whether you want to give me to pass it somehow. We are multicultural and it's time that we accept this. I
And yes, we have racism and it's getting more. But I hope you find the right mechanisms to lower this kind of development. What is going on?
PM: Me too, absolutely. I pray for it for you and for Germany and for the world. We need to move on now. I know it's very easy for me to say that, to just throw that out there. But I really believe it.
Katarina B: We are all part of the world. We are all part of the solution. So for the one we can say for the one is easier to say but we are part of it. If it's easier easier, let's say we are part of this progress. So yeah, it's I think it's important to be part of the process not just categorize yourself um to Yeah. Where it's important. Sure some people have the strong voices have to write words and have more to say because of the experience because they're not white. But I just I don't know if we should always start leveling with.
PM: Yeah, I know and it’s so complicated. I agree with you. So the other people who are also part of this world are the audience who are asking questions. So I'm gonna like give them some space now and I'm gonna tell try stepping back a little bit, hard as I find it at times.
This question I think is maybe we'll actually for all of you, but maybe Agnes should answer it since I have not spoken to Agnes in a while. “Um how have you experienced a response to the film in europe and Africa as opposed to africa where any other response is different or surprising to you?”
Agnes-Lisa Wagner: I have to say. Well the reactions in europe, the reactions in Germany, because we've only really shown it in Germany so far were very positive. Um people really liked or liked the film and um we've actually really only heard positive feedback I think um I'm missing. Well the encounters festival is the first time that we're showing the film outside of Germany. So I'm like super eager and waiting to hear reactions from the South African audience and I'm I'm a little I don't want to stay nervous, but there's a tension, you know, I'm really waiting to find out what people outside of Germany think within Germany. I think most of the feedback that we got was that people said that they appreciated the fact that big issues came along with a certain lightness in our film so that it feels light, but we address, you know, some of the very big questions and that's one of the main things that people have said to me that I that I really, you know loved to hear because of course that's what we're always trying to do when making a documentary.
PM: And your your your subjects do fit that process very well because they're both kind of light but serious at the same time.
So I just want to read this is not a question, but it's just a comment. “This film presented such a different perspective on the relationship between europe and africa than I had previously seen. Thank you for bringing this film and expanding on the single single narrative of colonialism and neocolonialism”. And then we have another question that is directed at Agnes: “What was it like filming this father daughter relationship” – and this is a nice question – “ and and seeing how it transformed or was affected across the two locations?”.
ALW: Oh wow, interesting. Um they I mean Katarina and King Banza are very you know, easy together. Uh so we had a fantastic time filming with the both of them um but I also you know new and I sort of actually knew that before that Katarina doesn't Catalina, I'm sorry but I have I think I have to say (laughs) she's very polite around her father, you know and sometimes when we were with her without her father, we heard different tones sometimes. Uh so um towards the end of our filming, I think that changed a little bit. So the conversation that they're having at the end of the film where they almost fight, they still don't really fight, but they're trying to have a little debate because they simply don't agree on the thing that they talk about. I know for sure that that would not have happened before our journey to Ghana. So the end of the film was the last our last day of shooting it. That actually was the end of filming and I think it just had to come out, you know towards the end after this whole long trip. And in Ghana, I can't really say how the relationship would have felt different to us. I don't I don't really think that made a lot of difference. Katarina told us when while we were in Ghana that she saw her father in a different light a little bit, you know. Katarina, if I may say that, for you,I remember you telling us how impressed you were with his with the work that he does in Ghana. Aand that is something that that I observed that I think that it was a little bit of a real reality check for katarina right? I think, yeah, that's a way to put it.
Katarina B: Yes, Yes. You just said it right. Um It's that I knew that my father is doing this building bridges and bring people water, but to see it and to see the people and to see the thankfulness in their eyes and how they celebrate him. This was something completely different to Germany yeah, to see again because I know it, but it was 10 years ago and to see everything what he has done in the last 10 years was really impressive. Yes, I saw him with a different ISIS.
PM: Did that kind of create any kind of like like empty pressure in terms of your own future. Like all the things you might have to be responsible for, theoretically.
Katarina B:Sure – because people depends on that what my father is doing and when he can no longer do it this who is doing it will be this part for the people and this is something that is really what I'm thinking about. Yeah.
PM: And it also leads to like, you know, a whole series of conversations about government in africa and colonialism and who pays for what and where are the resources etcetera. Um so I mean in a way it doesn't seem you know, seem fair on you or your father or the community that that that that that is the situation. But it is a situation and you can see that.
Katarina B: You see how much we are wasting here in Germany, what we're throwing away and you see what, what people need their, it's what we are throwing away here is something what have worth there and this isn't balanced. And that's why you're thinking how can I bring this wealth? What also depends on Africa in europe, how can I bring this a little bit To the right point so they can, they love it. They love something on their own. So when they have clean water, they're healthy, they can go to school, they can do a job. It starts with water? It starts with clean water and the health from the people and so they can go and farm and everything, where it starts, to go to school.
PM: So I have a difficult question. Actually I don't know if it’s a difficult question but it would be for me. So King bonanza, you are going, it seems from the film that you are ultimately going to move back to Ghana and and retire in the area. And Catarina, you said you'd be keen to go back, but you didn't say if you like, would you be happy to go back and live in Ghana on a permanent basis? How would that feel?
Katarina B: I didn't think about this? I was, yes, I was thinking about when I'm old to live sure. But now I have my home base here. I just renovated my mother's house. We renovated together and yeah, but I think it would be, would be really nice and a big adventure and and the development that the people are so motivated. It's not like here that we have everything we have, Yeah, yeah, full. We consume, we can consume what we want whenever we have amazon and this and that, but the people that are improving and um find solutions for more big problems and in an interesting way and that what would make it interesting to work there. Yes, I think it would be interesting.
PM: And King Bansah, how would you feel about going back to you know going back to Ghana and living living with your with every people and I'm no longer being in Germany, I mean I'm sure you to come back for a visit but how would it feel to make that that move?
Katarina B: Yeah, I said I'll go back but it's not easy now because now now recently I'm building through through water holes now for for a very very poor people who don't have water to drink uh have a nice picture of this, what I'm doing now then I have a lot of people, I have a lot of poor people to help. You know is it will be very very difficult for me to be very, very difficult for me to live in Germany because Germany, if I need help, they are ready to help me immediately. Yeah, because because they know that if they give me the money I will I will use everything to do what I need for my people. Yes. Yeah. The german they they trust me before, before german don't believe you, they take time but if they believe you everything they'll give you you get everything from them. That's why I told you that the german they are the best people in this world – Yeah – for me.
PM: yes, yes, I understand that all statements are relative in some ways. Um I have one question from the audience: |Agnes, did you face any challenges as a european woman telling the story?”
ALW: Mm I'm sure I did. Um I for myself, like for my own, my, you know, my own perception of myself and my work. I think it was challenging, not so much telling the Banza family story, but filming in Ghana. Um because of the perspective thing, I was very much aware that I see Ghana and the people that we talked to and the people that we filmed with through my very white german eyes. Um and I was always aware of that and I was sometimes also nervous about it and I was sometimes nervous about will the film feel white? Will it feel like a white woman's film? And I was dealing with that a lot and sometimes struggling with it? And um some, you know sometimes answering the question, you know by saying yes, it will probably feel white and is that a bad thing necessarily? Like where is the, you know about limitations? And certainly you know there's this thing called the white gaze that's – I think Toni Morrison came up with that word or you know made it famous – and I was trying to stay neutral as much as I could, but of course we can never be neutral.
Um And I think my solution may be to that challenge was that I tried to while we were in Ghana and traveling. I tried to see whatever we saw through Katarina's eyes. Um which is something that we we do when we're making documentaries all the time. But in that case it felt a little comforting. It gave me some sort of you know, reassurance because I knew that I'm just showing what she is seeing and what she is going through and we're very close to her. So I think that was my way of dealing with that challenge. But it's interesting and I'm I'm thinking about it a lot also for my future as a filmmaker because I hope that this was not the last film that I'm know shooting in an african country or african culture. And I think that next time I would try to have someone on my team who is not white, I would love to start some sort of collaboration just to you know, include multiple perspectives. I had Katarina's and King Bandas perspective, but I would love to have a different perspective also on the side of the team.
PM: Yeah. Yeah. I mean more more more, more perspectives are you know, always enrich things. Um Of course, yeah, I mean you just you I mean this is another whole conversation, but you know, you spoke you spoke about trying to see the world with Katarina's eyes and I like I appreciate that, you know, I appreciate that sentiment. Um a lot of people in the current discourse kind of say that's something you can't do um and I agree that maybe you can't do it, but I do think that you can try to do it.
Yes, it's always just a tendency you cannot fully do it because you're still always yourself and I'm not claiming that I could ever see it through somebody else's eyes, but trying to be close to her I think um helped to try to you know, you know, yeah, be close to her feelings and her experiences, you know, like I said, which is something that we always do when making a documentary, to be as close as possible to the protagonists and try to you know, see things through their eyes no matter what ethnic background or you know, yeah…
PM: Katarina can you respond just about the notion of somebody else seeing the world through your eyes?
Katarina B: It, for me was really interesting what Agnes-Lisa said because I was thinking about this um a while ago, how she was feeling about to be a white woman to tell our story. And in our society, we’re both at the complete opposite. And for me, I don't have a problem when she says something like this because I trusted her 100% from the beginning on – I couldn't lay this story in somebody else's hand to know they will take good care of this story. That's why we were in a really close relationship and this time we talked a lot. And so for me it's not a problem when she says something like this because we were close and possibly maybe it was like this, that she had the feeling, and wanted to communicate um the pictures, the other stories, through my eyes. So she can't feel it for herself in a I don't know what to do it and when you're on the back of the field but your emotions and I don't sorry I lost the words, the english words. Sorry. I know, I think it's totally okay for me, totally.
ALW: Okay, but can I just add something, I just want to add that. I don't want it to sound like I was using Katarina or anybody else to have a certain experience. Uh that's not the way that I..I hope it didn't come across like that. You know when you make a documentary about a person, you always try to get as close to the person as possible because you're telling their story. So the closer I am in the work process, with the camera and everything, the better the audience can understand the feelings and thoughts and concerns of the protagonist. So that's you know, that's that's that's the process that we're always going through. I don't want it to sound like I was using Katarina to be able to feel something that a woman that's not white would feel, that, that, yeah, that would be wrong.
PM: Somebody also just said I think this is also very much a european story as well. That perspective added complexity to the story that it wasn't richard in a single background location. Um, so just in the last few minutes, um, I just want to ask for me what is a very important question, but you know, it's a question that I ask often in screenings about Africa and I know in this, particularly in films about Africa, but in this particular case is complicated by, well, by Corona by Corona and Covid and travel restrictions, But are there plans to show the film in the local community?
ALW: Yes, there are. But they're sketchy. I mean, there's the, the absolute desire to screen it in in the local communities. We just talked about it a few days ago – King Banza and I and his wife Gabriella Banza – we just had a conversation a few days ago about my absolute wish to go back to Hohe Gbi in Ghana where we shot most of the film, and I would also love to screen it in Akra. But of course it's really hard to plan something at this point. But we were saying that we don't have to rush it, you know, either in the fall, or if it happens in the spring next year, that would be marvelous as well. So yes, I definitely want to go back and show – especially those that are in the film, most of them have not seen the film – that's not something that I'm happy about. So, yes, we will definitely go to Ghana and show the film there.
PM: Great. Yeah, I think one thing that Corona has done is changed the nature of time and deadlines and things, which I think is good for media and culture ultimately. We kind of need to end things off. I want to ask King Banza. If there's one thing that you would like audiences to take away from this film, if there's one thing that is very important to you about this film, or just anything, what would you like to say to people?
King B: Agnes has done this film – it's not easy because we have about 90 hour of film. And she had to cut it, and she used her own philosophy. You know, this film is a philosophy film. Yeah.
PM: King Bansah, Katarina, Agne, thank you so much for this conversation. It’s been wonderful. I'm sorry we have to end it. I think we could carry on talking for quite a while, but thank you everybody.
King B: Very nice talking with you. Very nice.
ALW: Thank you very much.
PM: Thank you very much everybody.
King B: Thank you very much. Bye bye.
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A big thank you to Kirsten Machen and Linda Leow for both suggesting, within days of each other, that I start interviewing people again, and also for the numerous feedback requests. Thanks also to Debbie Sykes for some on-point UX suggestions and to Lorna McDowell for the frequent iPhone testing, Mitzi Pedersen for her eagle eyes, and Travis Lyle for always being there with sensible advice. Thanks to Sharlene Versfeld and Nashen Moodley for helping me to get access to so many amazing people over the years, and to Mirah Von Wicht for all the hugs and support. Special thanks to all my past editors, especially Cyril Madlada, for his immediate faith in me, Debbie Reynolds, for some wonderful working years at the Independent on Saturday and for giving me free reign to produce such eclectic content, to Yves Vanderhaeghen at the Weekend Witness for doing likewise, and to David Daley for our sadly brief working relationship at Salon. And, of course, a massive thank you to everyone who has spoken to me over the years. And finally, warm and appreciative thanks to YOU for reading, watching, and listening, and to my mother Astrid Machen for her boundless and endless love and encouragement.
*It would be remiss of me not to thank the hundreds of generous souls who's contribution to Stackoverflow and other forums provided the knowledge I needed to build this site. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The impulse to share knowledge and solutions is the best thing about the internet.
A big thank you to Kirsten Machen and Linda Leow for both suggesting, within days of each other, that I start interviewing people again, and also for the numerous feedback requests. Thanks also to Debbie Sykes for some on-point UX suggestions and to Lorna McDowell for the frequent iPhone testing. Thanks to Sharlene Versfeld and Nashen Moodley for helping me to get access to so many amazing people over the years, and to Mirah Von Wicht for all the hugs and support. Special thanks to all my past editors, especially Cyril Madlada, for his immediate faith in me, Debbie Reynolds, for some wonderful working years at the Independent on Saturday and for giving me free reign to produce such eclectic content, and to Yves Vanderhaeghen at the Weekend Witness for doing likewise. And, of course, a massive thank you to everyone who has spoken to me over the years. And finally, warm and appreciative thanks to YOU for reading, watching, and listening, and to my mother Astrid Machen for her boundless and endless love and encouragement.
A big thank you to Kirsten Machen and Linda Leow for both suggesting, within days of each other, that I start interviewing people again, and also for the numerous feedback requests. Thanks also to Debbie Sykes for some on-point UX suggestions and to Lorna McDowell for the frequent iPhone testing. Thanks to Sharlene Versfeld and Nashen Moodley for helping me to get access to so many amazing people over the years, and to Mirah Von Wicht for all the hugs and support. Special thanks to all my past editors, especially Cyril Madlada, for his immediate faith in me, Debbie Reynolds, for some wonderful working years at the Independent on Saturday and for giving me free reign to produce such eclectic content, and to Yves Vanderhaeghen at the Weekend Witness for doing likewise. And, of course, a massive thank you to everyone who has spoken to me over the years. And finally, warm and appreciative thanks to YOU for reading, watching, and listening, and to my mother Astrid Machen for her boundless and endless love and encouragement.
A big thank you to Kirsten Machen and Linda Leow for both suggesting, within days of each other, that I start interviewing people again, and also for the numerous feedback requests. Thanks also to Debbie Sykes for some on-point UX suggestions and to Lorna McDowell for the frequent iPhone testing. Thanks to Sharlene Versfeld and Nashen Moodley for helping me to get access to so many amazing people over the years, and to Mirah Von Wicht for all the hugs and support. Special thanks to all my past editors, especially Cyril Madlada, for his immediate faith in me, Debbie Reynolds, for some wonderful working years at the Independent on Saturday and for giving me free reign to produce such eclectic content, and to Yves Vanderhaeghen at the Weekend Witness for doing likewise. And, of course, a massive thank you to everyone who has spoken to me over the years. And finally, warm and appreciative thanks to YOU for reading, watching, and listening, and to my mother Astrid Machen for her boundless and endless love and encouragement.
